KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday, up for debate.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Make my day, pal.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Biden and Donald Trump agree to face off on a debate stage next month, the earliest general election debate in history.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I just want to debate this guy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Who will benefit more from the event? And could a third-party candidate qualify? Plus, courtroom campaign.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Can you believe I've been here for five weeks instead of campaigning?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Republican allies and some vice presidential contenders of Donald Trump flock to the Manhattan courthouse in a show of support as the hush money trial is nearing an end.
SEN. JD VANCE:
It’s like psychological torture for Donald Trump.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What will the jury decide in the first ever criminal trial of a former president? My guests this morning Republican Senator Marco Rubio of Florida and Democratic Governor Wes Moore of Maryland. And, undercurrent. Olympic swimmer Michael Phelps opens up about his struggles with depression in our “Meet the Moment” conversation.
MICHAEL PHELPS:
There are times where I feel like I’m all alone.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Still?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Still, yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Senior White House Correspondent Kelly O'Donnell, Symone Sanders-Townsend, former chief spokeswoman for Vice President Kamala Harris, and Republican strategist Brendan Buck. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. The political world is gearing up for a historic face off. President Biden and former President Trump have agreed to the earliest general election debate in modern history. Trump, who has been beset by a swirl of legal challenges, is hoping he can prove his case that President Biden is not up for another 4 years. Biden wants to show why, as he argues, Trump is unfit for office. It's also a likely attempt by President Biden to shake up the race.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Donald Trump lost two debates to me in 2020. Since then, he hasn't shown up for a debate. Now he's acting like he wants to debate me again. Well, make my day, pal.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
If this horrible individual finishes the debate, which I think he will, if he's standing, if he's standing, they'll say it was a brilliant performance. It was a brilliant performance. they've never seen anything like it.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now, general election debates are the biggest stage for a presidential candidate. More than 73 million people tuned into the first Biden-Trump debate in 2020. Now, as for those legal battles, former Trump fixer Michael Cohen will be back on the stand tomorrow, as the first criminal trial of a former president draws to a close. But despite it all, the state of the race remains stagnant. Biden continues to trail former President Trump in several key battleground states, down by double digits in Nevada and Georgia, states he won in 2020. In Atlanta on Saturday, the president argued Mr. Trump presents an "unhinged" threat to the country, and took a swipe at the polls.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
You hear about how, you know, we're behind in the polls. Well so far the polls haven’t been right once. Now look, we’re either tied or slightly ahead or slightly behind but what I look at is actual election results. And election results are in the primaries. Look at the primaries. Well, Mr. Trump, he doesn't have an opponent, but he lost 120,000 votes and Pennsylvania that didn't vote for him. They voted for a woman who’s no longer in the race.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Meanwhile, on Friday night at a Republican dinner in Minnesota, former President Trump falsely claimed he won the state in 2016 and in 2020. He lost both times.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I thought we won it in 2016, I thought we won it in – I know we won it in 2020. We gotta be, we gotta be careful. We got to watch those votes.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
At the NRA convention in Dallas on Saturday, Trump again falsely claimed to have won the 2020 election.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
FDR. 16 years, almost 16 years, he was four-term. I don't know. Are we going to be considered three-term or two-term? You tell me.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now, the former president is in the early stages of the search for a running mate. Among the prominent Trump supporters who showed up for court this week in New York: potential running mates dressed like Trump, including North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum, Florida Congressman Byron Donalds and Ohio Senator JD Vance. Burgum also joined Trump in Minnesota on Friday night.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
And they just agreed or something to a vice president debate. I said, "How can I have a vice president debate? I haven't even picked." I haven't even picked the gentleman or woman yet. I haven't picked. A lot of people think it's that guy right there. I don't know. Who the hell knows? He'd be very good. We have a lot of 'em would be good, Doug, right? We have a lot of good people.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is one of those potential vice presidential picks, Florida Republican Senator Marco Rubio. Senator Rubio, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here. Well, let's dive into the state of the race. The last time you were asked about whether you had spoken with former President Trump about being his running mate, you said you hadn't. So can you update us: Have you spoken to the former president about potentially being his running mate?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
I haven't spoken to the president, I haven't spoken to anybody in the campaign. The only people that have spoken to me about vice president, for the most part, are members of the media, which is fine. Look, this is part of the deal. The primaries are over and so, you know, political reporters have to cover politics. And I understand the VP stuff is an interesting horse race question. But there's only one person on this planet that knows who the vice presidential pick is going to be, and his name is Donald Trump. And he's got time to make that decision, and a lot of really good people to pick from. But I've never spoken to anybody on the campaign about it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask it this way. We have noticed that you have not been on the campaign trail with the former president in recent days. We haven't seen you show up in court. Do you want the job of vice president, senator?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Well, first of all, I'll do whatever the campaign asks me to do. So I've been at events to help raise money and so forth. We're also in session in Washington, so we've got some work there. We had open hearings this week in the Intelligence Committee. And so, you know, that's going on. But I'll be there to be helpful because I want him to win. If Joe Biden – and part of the second answer is I want to serve the country. I'm not presumptuous to tell you I'm going to be offered anything. As I said, he's got a lot of good people to pick from. Here's what I do know: If Joe Biden is reelected president, the damage to this country, I believe, in some cases, will be generational, and some of it will be irreversible. That's how high the stakes are. I cannot imagine another four years under Joe Biden as president. And I will do virtually anything to ensure that Donald Trump wins and that Joe Biden does not because we can't afford as a nation to have another four years like the last three and a half.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So just to put a fine point on it: You would say yes if you were asked to serve as his vice presidential nominee?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Again, that would be presumptuous for me. I think anyone who's offered that job, to serve this country in the second highest office, assuming everything else in your life makes sense at that moment. If you're interested in serving the country, it's an incredible place to serve. But I just think this kind of speculation, we're getting way ahead of ourselves here. As I said, we'll find out soon enough. But I've never spoken to anybody about it so why would I even opine on something I've never spoken to the campaign about?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay, fair enough. Well, let's talk about one of the major policy issues of this campaign, the issue of abortion. Senator, would you support a federal abortion ban?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Well, I'm pro life. And, to me, this is not even a political issue. I understand it is for a lot of people, and I understand this is a divisive issue in our country and not everybody shares my views on it. But I believe that human life is worthy of dignity and protection. And I support laws that protect our unborn human life. I always have. As I've done in the past. You know, when people talk about a federal abortion ban, what they're talking about is the 15-week ban which Lindsey Graham sponsored and I have co-sponsored in the past. That law is less restrictive or identical to virtually every country in Europe except for two. Now, the extremists here are the Democrats. Not once but twice, they have voted in Congress to support a law that basically has no meaningful restrictions. They claim it does, but it has no meaningful restrictions. And I think if we are indeed in this republic, which is what we live in, and a divisive issue like this where everybody's views have to be taken into account, it's very difficult to find, if there is such a thing, an arrangement at the federal level with people who basically will not vote for any meaningful restrictions on abortion.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, of course the restrictions would be after 21 weeks. But let me ask it to you this way. Donald Trump –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
No, that's not accurate. I'm sorry, that's not what that bill did. No, I'm sorry, but that's not what that bill did. That bill, it didn't say anything about doctors. It said "practitioners." So it didn't have to be a doctor that makes this decision. It doesn't say anything about a reasonable harm. It’s a – it’s just a "good faith." And so basically, even if it's remote and unlikely, you could still say – and, by the way, the law that they had, it's not even about the life of the mother. It's about the health. So it could be a nurse practitioner, or a nurse. I mean, "health care practitioner," someone needs to define that. And it can be for virtually any reason. So I understand what they claim the bill did, but in practice, that bill had no meaningful restrictions. It was, in essence, a vote, not once but twice, from Democrats, to have abortion at any time for any reason.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me just note though that less than 1% of abortions take place after 21 weeks. Let me just ask you though this: Does Donald Trump –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Then everybody should be in favor – if they're so rare, then let's just ban them all after 21 weeks. Why are we –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you, though.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
– fighting so hard on that?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, because usually if they happen, it's because there is a crisis with the health of the mother. Let me ask you, though. Donald Trump says--
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
No, no, but if there's a crisis of –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– he's not signing –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
– the life of the mother, a real crisis, every bill has that restriction in place. Every bill has that exception.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me ask it this way. Donald Trump says, quote, he's, "Not signing a national abortion ban." Do you disagree with him on that point?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Well, he won't get to sign one, because there's no way we can pass it. I've never claimed we have 60 votes in the Senate and votes in the House and everything else that goes in between. I don't believe anytime – but I don't – see I don’t support those bills because I think they're actually about to pass. And I think what Trump has actually said is that what he wants to do is negotiate with a Democrat – I think he said it on this program – that he wants to negotiate with the Democrats on this. Which I think, you know, in a country where you're trying to save unborn human life – and I support laws that do so, even if they don't have everything I want him to have in there – that's his goal. And so – but, he’s – that's a statement of fact. He will never get a chance to sign that law because right now, we don't have the votes to pass it. That doesn't mean that's not what I believe, that's just kind of the reality of the politics.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, but he's – he’s not talking about whether the votes are there. He has said point blank he's not signing a national abortion ban. Let me ask you though, because he also –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Because he wants to negotiate with the Democrats on the issue is what he said.
KRISTEN WELKER:
He also said on this program that a six-week abortion ban that was signed into law in Florida, in your state, is a, quote, "Terrible thing, a terrible mistake." Is he wrong on that point, senator?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Well, again, I'm pro-life so I support laws that save unborn human life. Other people have different opinions on what our law should be. That law that you're referring to was passed by elected legislators in the state of Florida, House members that have to go back to their voters every two years. It wasn't – senators have to go back every four years. And that's the way our republic works. It’s a representative democracy and people have to go back to their voters and justify. I am of the belief that unborn human – I don't want to impose anything on anyone. I get that this is two competing rights here that are crashing into each other. But I err on the side of supporting unborn human life because of the dignity of all human life, that's my view. I want our laws to represent it. Other people have different views. But in our representative democracy, people who have to answer to voters in the state of Florida voted for that and voters will now get to take that into account in this election and any future election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to put a fine point on it. You are disagreeing with Donald Trump on his opposition to that six week ban. You support the six-week ban?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
But I think even within the pro-life movement, there's all kinds of disagreement about what the law should be –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But you support the six-week ban?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Some of it is practical on what we can pass.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You support the six-week ban?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
I support any bill that protects unborn human life, but I don't consider other people in the pro life movement who have a different view to be apostate. They just have a different view about the best way to approach this issue. We are not like the Democrats where, unless you are in favor of their bills that basically say, "Let's just put in all this fancy language, but it's not meaningful in terms of any restrictions." Planned Parenthood, for example, who supports all these –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
– Democrats, to get their support, and NARAL support, you have to be for abortion at any time. I don't care what they say, that's the practical impact of their laws. They are radicals on this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator, let's – let’s move on to immigration. If reelected, Donald Trump has said he's willing to build migrant detention camps and deploy the U.S. military to deport the more than 11 million undocumented immigrants in this country. It would be the largest deportation operation in American history. Do you support that plan?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
11 million? That was the number ten years ago. We're talking upwards of 20, 25, maybe 30 million. There's been almost 10 million people –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, the numbers vary. But would you support –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
– that have entered this country unlawfully in the last three years.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to the question. Would you support it?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
The number varies big time. I mean, it's another 9-10 million people just in the last three years. The answer to your question is yes. We cannot absorb 25, 30 million people who entered this country illegally. They're here illegally. What country on earth would tolerate that? We don't even know who some of these, most of these people are. They talk about vetting; vetting them with what? They're coming from nations that don't even have document systems in many cases. Yes, we are going to have to do something. Unfortunately, we're going to have to do something dramatic to remove people from this country that are here illegally, especially people we know nothing about. But 10 million, 11 million, that was the number 15 years ago. Today, it's upwards of probably 25-30 million, maybe more.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, here's what you said about Donald Trump's mass deportation proposals in 2016. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
I don't think it's reasonable to say you're going to round up and deport 11 million people. I don't think it's a plan that works. I don't think that's a realistic policy.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
So why have you changed your mind now?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Because the issue has completely changed. When I said that and back in 2013, when I was involved in immigration reform, we had 11 to 12 million people that had been here for longer than a decade. Now, we've had almost that number in the last three years alone from all over the world, including people, that I believe, are terrorists. People, that I believe, are going to conduct terrorist attacks in this country if given the opportunity. Certainly people that were criminals in their home country. This is a completely different – this is not immigration. You asked me about immigration, this is mass migration. Mass migration. This is an invasion of the country and it needs to be dealt with dramatically. And by the way, I don't – I’m not a big poll follower, but polls show most Americans agree with us on this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And of course that was an issue under former President Trump as well. There was just a bipartisan proposal that was put on the table that would put more funding into border enforcement as well as limiting asylum. Republicans walked away from that. But let me move on to my next question. When are we supposed to have –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
No, no, no, we can't move because that's not what that bill did. That bill also created asylum officers who right on the border will be able to give people asylum. And you give someone asylum right on the border without any appeal, no judge, nothing, just an asylum officer, they are on a path to citizenship.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Your fellow –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
That's why I opposed that bill.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Your fellow Republican said it was the best deal that they had seen in a long, long time. But, Senator, when you look ahead –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Which fellow Republican?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Lindsey Graham, just to name –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Which fellow Republican said that?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Lindsey Graham, just to name one –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Okay, well, then I just disagree with Lindsey if that's what –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Let me –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
– he said. But I'm not in favor of asylum officers at the border that can issue asylum rulings right at the border.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Senator James Lankford of course negotiated it. But let me look forward. Will you accept the election results of 2024, no matter what happens, senator?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
No matter what happens? No. If it's an unfair election, I think it's going to be contested –
KRISTEN WELKER:
No matter who wins.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
– by either side.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, no matter who wins?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Well, I think you're asking the wrong person. The Democrats are the ones that have opposed every Republican victory since 2000, every single one. Hillary Clinton –
KRISTEN WELKER:
No Democrat has refused to concede. Hillary Clinton conceded. Senator, will you accept the election results?
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Hillary Clinton said the election was stolen from her and that Trump was illegitimate.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But she conceded.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Kamala Harris agreed.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, she –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
We have Democrats now –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– conceded the election. Senator, she conceded the election –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
But she said that Joe Biden –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– and attended the inauguration.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
No. She said that Trump was illegitimate. She said that the election had been stolen. Kamala Harris agreed. By the way, there are Democrats serving in Congress today who, in 2004, voted not to certify the Ohio electors because they said those machines –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
– had been tampered with. And you have Democrats now saying they won't certify 2024 because Trump is an insurrectionist and ineligible to hold office. So you need to ask them. I think you have to – Have you ever asked the Democrats this question on the show?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
I bet you you've never asked a Democrat that question.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, you voted to certify the 2020 election and here is what you said on that day that you voted to certify the 2020 election.
[START TAPE]
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Democracy is held together by people's confidence in the election and their willingness to abide by its results.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
So by your own definition, are Donald Trump's claims undermining Americans' confidence in democracy? Given that he has not –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
I think what –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– conceded the last election, and he just said in recent days twice that he won Minnesota, senator.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
I think what undermines people's confidence in the election is when you have places like Wisconsin with over 500 illegal drop box locations, when you have places like Georgia where liberal groups –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator--
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
– were paying people $10 per vote. No, but, listen. What undermines elections is when NBC News and every major news outlet in America in 2020 censored the Biden laptop story, which turned out to be true, not Russian misinformation, unprecedented. You couldn't even talk about it on social media, they would de-platform you. People look at all this. They look at what happened in Arizona, 200,000 ballots –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
– that the signatures didn't match. People lose confidence –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, hold on. Senator –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
– and it opens the door to this. It does.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– I have to jump in here. Senator, voted to certify the election. And –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Because at that stage of the process, you have no options.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, you voted to certify the election. Nothing has been censored on this program. Hillary Clinton –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
– Did you guys cover the laptop for Joe Biden in 2020?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Absolutely we did. Absolutely covered the laptop. And Hillary Clinton did concede.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
It was bad. You couldn’t even talk about it on social media.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But bottom line – Chris Krebs, the top election official –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
You couldn’t talk about it on social media. They deplatformed. You couldn’t even talk about it because you would be called – they said it was Russian disinformation. Voters, in many cases, didn't even hear about it because it was blacked out by the media.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We did cover the election. And just a note that Chris Krebs –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
You covered the election, yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– who is a top Trump election official, called it the safest and most secure election in recent history.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
This is not about –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, we are out of time –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Of course we are. but I'm telling you that if it's unfair, we are going to do the same thing Democrats do. We're going to use lawyers to go to court and point out the fact that states are
not following their own election laws.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay, but the Democrats –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
Hopefully we’ll have a fair election and it will be unquestionable –
KRISTEN WELKER:
All those cases –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
– and it will be unquestionable –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, all those cases were brought to court cases were lost and there was no proof that there was any widespread fraud, as you know. But I appreciate –
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
But I never used the word “widespread fraud.”
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right – I’m sorry – Senator Rubio, thank you very much. I appreciate your time this morning. When we come back, Democratic Governor Wes Moore of Maryland joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. President Biden delivers the commencement address this morning at historically black Morehouse College in Atlanta. Tonight he'll address the NAACP's Freedom Fund Dinner in Detroit. It will be the seventh event he has held in four days, focused on African American communities, and shoring up support among Black voters. Biden won 87% of Black voters in 2020. But according to an NBC News Poll, last month only 71% support him now. No Republican presidential candidate since Richard Nixon in 1960 has won more than 13% of the Black vote. The Biden campaign is also concerned about lagging enthusiasm. NBC News correspondent Trymaine Lee sat down with voters in Detroit.
[START TAPE]
TRYMAINE LEE:
Who among you is definitely going to vote? Raise your hand if you're definitely voting in this election. So just one. So you haven't decided whether you're going to vote or not?
DETROIT VOTER:
I'm undecided as of right now.
OZZIE WILLIAMS:
Me and my family, we're Democrats.
ZEEK WILLIAMS:
I don't know who I'm going to vote for.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me now is Maryland governor, Wes Moore, a member of the Biden campaign's national advisory board. Governor Moore, welcome back to Meet the Press. Thank you for being here.
GOV. WES MOORE:
Great to be with you. Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let's start off by talking about African American voters. The polls show there has been this erosion of support amongst Black voters, as we just mapped out. And you heard them there say some of them don't know if they're going to go out to vote. Why do you think there is this erosion amongst Black supporters?
GOV. WES MOORE:
Well, I think there's a frustration and a cynicism. And I think it's longstanding. We – we have to remember my grandfather was born in this country and when he was just a toddler, the Ku Klux Klan ran him out of – and my whole family out of this country. And I'm now standing here as his grandson, as the 63rd governor of the State of Maryland and only the third African American ever elected governor in the history of this country. The reason I bring that up is because history does matter. And so when we look at the fact that in Maryland there's an eight-to-one racial wealth gap, that's not because one group is working eight times harder. When we're looking at drastic differences between unemployment rates, or how cannabis was used as a cudgel against Black communities for so long in our nation's history, that's a reality. And so I think that the thing that the president is showing that, when you look at the president doing things like rescheduling cannabis from schedule one to schedule three, having the largest pardon for cannabis convictions, having, you know, the largest growth in black-owned businesses for black men in 30 years, we now have a president who's actually doing something about these systemic challenges we've been facing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and yet some black voters feel as though he has not done enough, has not done enough on police reform and voting rights, for example. And you're seeing this show up in the polls where there is this real enthusiasm gap, governor. And when I talk to Democrats, they say this is really a five-alarm fire, this erosion of support, this erosion of enthusiasm amongst Black supporters. What does President Biden need to do? Does he have enough time to change the dynamic?
GOV. WES MOORE:
Well, I mean, we know that these challenges have been long standing and the solutions are not going to come overnight. The thing that I know though is I have the right partner that I need in the president. When we think about the work that we are doing, just take in the State of Maryland, by being able to now have the lowest unemployment rate that we've seen for African Americans in our state's history. The fact that we've been able to increase wages that have had a disproportionate impact on the African American community, these are things that really matter. Focusing on work, wages, and wealth. And President Biden has been the partner that all of us have needed and all of us have been asking for, to have inside this work.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And of course the big news this week is that President Biden agreed to debate former president Trump. Right now there are two debates scheduled. They're putting tradition to the side, going around the Presidential Commission on debates to do it. Do you think President Biden agreed to this debate format to shake up the race?
GOV. WES MOORE:
No. I think he agreed because he's got a record to tell. I think – I think President Biden has a story to tell about he's creating economic momentum, having historically low unemployment rates, by being able to break inflation from what we had, from historically high rates at least in recent history. And the leadership that he's been able to show to actually create an economy that benefits everybody. And frankly, I'm looking forward to hearing Donald Trump talk about something other than himself for the first time in a long time.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let me ask you about something that unfolded this week. President Biden's decision to assert executive privilege over the audio recordings of his interview with Special Counsel Robert Hur in the investigation into his handling of classified documents. Of course, he wasn't charged with a crime. Here is what President Biden said about transparency at his very first press conference after taking office. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
So I'm running for three reasons: to restore the soul, dignity, honor, honesty, transparency to the American political system.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
How is asserting executive privilege over these audio tapes consistent with his promise of transparency?
GOV. WES MOORE:
Well, I think the DOJ has already released the full transcripts, the hours of transcripts of interviews that were done. The GOP now has everything that they need to conduct any investigation, should they choose to. The reason that they want the audio is a purely political reason to want the audio. You have the transcripts. And that, by the way, was a historic step for them to be able to offer the transcripts as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I hear you saying that, but since they released the transcripts, why isn't the president allowing them to release the audio too? Is he concerned about people hearing his voice, hearing his answers? And is that not inconsistent with his promise of transparency?
GOV. WES MOORE:
No. I think the American people hear the president's voice every single day. But the idea that this is being done, or this decision is because of a lack of transparency, it just doesn't hold water, because the full transcripts are there. They – they – they have everything that they need in order to conduct any investigation that they should choose – choose to do. This is a political game that's being played right now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Let's talk about the big news in your state, one of the big pieces of news, the senate race. The former governor, Republican governor, your predecessor Larry Hogan made big news this week by coming out and saying he would support codifying abortion rights into law. And of course Angela Alsobrooks, the Democrat who you support just won her senate primary. How concerned are you that Larry Hogan throwing his support around codifying Roe v. Wade could cost Angela Alsobrooks the election?
GOV. WES MOORE:
Well, I'm excited about Angela Alsobrooks being my partner in the work, and our next senator. I endorsed her early, and I was proud to. And I don't think what the old governor said this week was news, because I think people in our state are going to be able to distinguish between what he is saying now that he's trying to get back into politics, versus what he did when he was actually in office. This is a person who when Roe v. Wade fell under his watch, when he was government, he vetoed legislation to increase privacy for women. He vetoed legislation that increased abortion protections for women. On my first day of office, I released three and a half million dollars of previously unreleased funds, because the old governor wouldn't do it for political reasons. And I think people in our state are going to be able to notice that what he's saying now is not just disingenuous, but frankly it's the same type of problem with politics that he rails on, he's actually the prime example of what people are so frustrated about.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I have to ask you about the Key Bridge. I know that there's going to be a big development tomorrow. Talk to us about that and also the criticism from Republicans who are saying they do not want to support federal funding to rebuild the bridge, particularly if it is not matched with offsets.
GOV. WES MOORE:
Yeah, you know, I remember that first morning when the bridge fell. People were saying that this thing could take six, nine months to be able to re-clear the channel. I mean, we have a ship that's the size of three football fields, that's sitting in the middle of the Patapsco River. And – and I remember we made four commitments. And I had four directives: To support the families of those six Marylanders who we lost, to make sure we're supporting all the workers and first responders that were impacted by it, to be able to get that Key Bridge rebuilt, and also to reopen that federal channel. And despite the fact that people said this could take six and nine months, I'm proud that we're on track, that by the end of May we'll have that federal channel reopened, and within days, we're going to have that massive vessel, the Dali, out of that federal channel. And I think for people who are concerned about the cost, my thing is this. The American people will be made whole on this. And we just had to make sure that we had to get it done fast, and on time, and on budget. And that's our focus.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Governor Wes Moore, thank you so much for being here in studio. We really appreciate it. And when we come back, Donald Trump's allies flock to the Manhattan courthouse to show their support as the hush money trial nears the end. Our panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News Senior White House Correspondent Kelly O'Donnell; Symone Sanders-Townsend, co-host of The Weekend and former chief spokesperson for Vice President Harris; and Brendan Buck, former advisor to House Speaker Ryan and Boehner. Thank you all for being here. Kelly, let me start with you. Set the stage, as we are all waiting for the event on the big stage, the first debate that's going to take place in June, less than six weeks away. Obviously, a lot of big emotions heading into that, which you saw in those two interviews there. What's at stake for each candidate?
KELLY O'DONNELL:
Well, talking with both campaigns they have one bit of commonality: They're happy to have debates, and they're happy to have them early. They believe the public will enjoy that and take something from it and that they believe that voters need to be engaged. From the Democratic side, Biden world believes they have a campaign tactical win here, that they sort of set the terms of two debates, getting a no audience scenario where Donald Trump can't do what he is so good at is working the room. They also say he'll have to answer for his record. He'll have to talk about reproductive rights. On the Trump side, they're saying, "Well, but – but Donald Trump is very good in these moments," and they believe that Joe Biden will have to answer for inflation, will have to show his endurance, those kinds of things. Democrats say on big nights Joe Biden comes through. So both campaigns are looking forward to it. There are real questions about will the two debates hold. Biden world says that's a done decision. The Trump side is continuing to say they're open to additional debates and expanding the playing field.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, Symone, dive in here because of course we've been talking about the fact that there's been this erosion of support among Black voters and President Biden. This debate, the first one will be held in Atlanta. He's obviously delivering the commencement address at Morehouse. How important is the debate, both of them, to him winning back support among key constituencies?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
I think the debate is critical because it allows folks to see Joe Biden in his element for themselves. They hear a lot about him on television. They see – they consume clips of him, right, on social media. But a debate is a one-on-one match-up, where you have President Biden who'll be able to make his affirmative case but also go toe to toe with Donald Trump and do a little tête-à-tête. And I think that's what voters want to see. They want to see Uncle Joe, as people often tell me, you know, whenever I end up in the nail shop. That's what I'm hearing, Kristen. And I think that's going to be critical for them. But I'd also argue that campaigning and being out there in the communities, touching the people, again, that one-on-one campaigning, retail politics, is also crucial for what voters decide to do when they go to the ballot box in less than four months.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Brendan, one of the other pieces to this puzzle is the fact that it seems like they're trying to, if you believe RFK, box him out, box out a third-party candidate by holding this debate early, by holding it before, frankly, a lot of the states have met their requirements in terms of being able to be on the ballot. Do you think that's fair?
BRENDAN BUCK:
Yeah, I think and this is one situation you should believe RFK. They are trying to box him out. And the reality is it's not entirely clear who RFK is hurting or helping the most. There's a very good argument that he's hurting Joe Biden with his name ID. And there's a very good argument that he's hurting Donald Trump. Some of his positions are very Trump-like. So there's not going to be a debate where RFK is on the stage. We've broken free of the commission. Neither of these men are going to allow themselves to get onstage with that person and elevate him because it's just too risky. There's no reason to.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Kelly, of course all this coming against the backdrop of former President Trump's criminal trial in Manhattan. Could wrap up this week or next week. It hasn't really changed the dynamics of this race so far.
KELLY O'DONNELL:
And just to follow on the note of debates, they tell me on the Biden side they picked the date that they were looking for to try to be past--
KRISTEN WELKER:
Interesting.
KELLY O'DONNELL:
--the trial with a real question mark about how will it come out. Now, the Trump side says that they feel pretty good about the week they've had in court because they believe that the former president's attorneys were able to chip away at Michael Cohen, a key witness for the prosecution. At the same time, they will acknowledge that this has been frustrating and annoying for the former president to be sort of tied to the courtroom and not being able to campaign. You've heard him talk very publicly about feeling trapped by that. And the Biden side is saying this is a way for them to be able to set a big contrast because the president will come back from the G7, for example, go into this debate when Trump has been in court.
BRENDAN BUCK:
Can I just say this should have been a moment where Donald Trump was – was hurt. He's spent several weeks in – in the courthouse, and we have seen very little evidence that anything has really significantly changed. I mean, this is a person who's potentially going to be found guilty of a crime, and the president hasn't figured any way to take advantage of that. And this is the same mistake that I think a lot of the GOP nominees, or contenders in the primary, did too. They just sort of assumed if you let it hang out there that it would be to their benefit. And it just doesn't happen. I think this was a big missed opportunity for the Biden campaign.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What about that, Symone?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Well I think that Joe Biden – look, the president and the vice president, they are not going to touch Donald Trump's criminal anything because some of them are tied to Department of Justice and Joe Biden has been very clear how he feels about that very distinct separation, given what Donald Trump did when he was president. That being said, other Democrats can, and I think should, be more vocal about what Donald Trump is facing. But the contrast has been very clear. While Donald Trump is in court, Joe Biden is out there campaigning. On a day where Donald Trump could've been campaigning, on a Wednesday, he wasn't, he was playing golf and then had a dinner, Joe Biden was in Wisconsin at the very place where Donald Trump promised jobs by Foxconn that never, never manifested and with Microsoft, again, new jobs with a promise there. On – I think Brendan makes a very important point though about it should hurt him. I look at the Maryland primary. The fact that Donald Trump lost by so – 20-plus percent of Republicans in that primary, Indiana primary, 20-plus percent, spells trouble to me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Brendan, so extraordinary to see this display of potential VP picks at court with the former president. As I said to Senator Rubio, he wasn't there but, boy, he seems like he wants to be in the game, based on everything we heard from him today--
BRENDAN BUCK:
I mean, the Republican Party, everything revolves around Donald Trump. So it's not surprising. There's a lot of people who are lining up who, for whatever reason, want to be his VP.
KELLY O'DONNELL:
In uniform.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
The red ties.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All wearing matching outfits.
BRENDAN BUCK:
The normal things that a person should be thinking about when they're picking a VP is, "Could this person do the job if they are-- first and foremost, could they do the job if something happens to me and secondly, you know, do they expand the map? "Do they do anything politically helpful for me?" I don't think Donald Trump thinks about those things at all. All he is thinking about is, "This is a person who is going to back me up and do whatever I say and be loyal to me to the end." And those people were showing they're very loyal.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The loyalty test?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
It’s clear.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Loyalty is top of the list. All right, guys. Great conversation. Thank you so much. When we come back, some important lessons from the first ever televised presidential debates. Our Meet The Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. This week President Biden and former President Trump agreed to debates that will not include a live audience. That hasn't happened since the first televised presidential debates were held between John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon in 1960. Kennedy famously commanded the television space with Nixon appearing sweaty and uncomfortable, the first sign that TV debates would alter campaigns forever. Nixon's campaign chair joined this broadcast after the last of the candidates’ four debates.
[START TAPE]
RICHARD WILSON:
Do you think Nixon would be better off if he hadn't engaged in those debates with Kennedy?
LEONARD HALL:
Well, may I say this? We heard many things about the first debate particularly. I don't know what happened there myself, but certainly if I can take a moment, I was in Chicago with him at that time. And when I saw the picture of him on television I went back to the hotel and I was amazed that this healthy-looking fellow in the chair talking to me was the man who appeared on television. I would say, however, looking at the course of the four debates, we make surveys, we check with people, and I don't think one vote was changed either way by the four debates. We can't find that they made much difference.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, when we come back, Olympic swimmer Michael Phelps opens up about his struggles with depression in our Meet the Moment Conversation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Michael Phelps is the most decorated Olympian of all time with 23 gold medals, the swimming sensation is undoubtedly one of the greatest competitors alive. But that doesn't mean Phelps doesn't have his struggles. In retirement, Phelps has been using his voice to speak out about facing depression and anxiety and advocating for more mental health resources for athletes. With May being mental health awareness month, I sat down with Phelps near his home in Arizona for a "Meet the Moment" conversation about how he's doing in his own mental health journey and what more needs to be done in the Olympic community.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about your life post- your Olympic career. You have dedicated so much time to advocating for, to speaking out about mental health, your mental health, the importance of getting help if you are struggling. Before we dive into your advocacy, how are you doing right now, Michael?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I'm good. I mean, obviously I have my days, like everyone does. Right? We go through ups and downs, and that's just life. I feel like I have more tools now to prepare me through the bumps or the roller coasters, like I call them, that I go through in my life. And, yeah, I'm enjoying being retired again and being able to talk about mental health, which is something that, personally, I struggle with almost every single day. And depression and anxiety aren't just going to disappear, right? These are things that I have to adapt and I have adapted throughout my life, and they are a part of my life. They're always going to be a part of my life. So, it's finding the best way every single day to be the best version of me
.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You just said something really powerful, which is that you still struggle with depression –
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Sure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– and anxiety every day.
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Yeah. I mean, there are times. I mean, there are ten-day spells where every day's a struggle. But for me, it's: What can I control in that moment? Throughout my career I looked at myself as a swimmer and an athlete. Now, I can look in a mirror and see a person, somebody that has feelings and emotions.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I do think it's striking to hear you say you saw yourself as a swimmer, as an Olympian, not necessarily as a person. When did you first realize you were really struggling with depression?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I would say probably 2004. 2004 was my first taste of post-Olympic depression. Coming off such a high when it's basically you get to like the edge of the cliff, and you're like, "Cool. Now what? Oh, I guess I've got to wait four more years to have the chance to do it again." Right? And for those who don't have a successful Olympics, those four years can be like an absolute eternity. So, for me, 2004 is my first, 2008 was my second taste of post-Olympic depression. Because coming off of that high after doing something, like, you set out to do your whole entire life. My goal was to do something no one else had ever done before.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Did you know it was depression, or did you just think, "I'm feeling a little off"?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I think at that point I'll say as a male athlete I could tell something was off. But I think I saw it as a sign of weakness and if I shared anything about it then it would give my competitors an edge. And I'm not trying to do that, right? I don't want to give my competitors an edge. I'm trying to be better than anybody, period, has ever been. So, for me, I looked at it as weakness. So, for me, I had to learn that vulnerability is a good thing. And it was scary at first, but I learned that vulnerability just means change. And for me, it was a great change.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I do want to go back to that moment in 2014 when you got a DUI. You've spoken about this quite extensively. You say you were effectively locked in a room for four days.
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Yeah, three or four days.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You had suicidal thoughts. Your family did rally around you. How did you find the strength to get help in that moment?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Yeah. I mean, I think in that moment, for me, there was a lot of shame. And I just really had the thought of it was me that was putting my family through all of this stress and all of this. And I was just like, "Okay, maybe it's better if I just leave." And at the time, I was prescribed Ambien from our doctors on our team trips. And I was happy I only had three pills left. And I took them all that night, and I woke up the next morning, and I didn't eat anything or drink anything for two or three days. And after those two or three days, I didn't really want to talk to anybody. I didn't want to see anybody. It was kind of just to the point where I knew I needed help, right? Like, the thoughts that I was having were too much, and they were overwhelming, and they were scary. So for me at that point, I just checked myself into a treatment center.
KRISTEN WELKER:
For 45 days.
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Forty-five days.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What happened in those 45 days that made you stronger?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Yeah. I basically got ripped apart. And I say that and like – imagine a motherboard of a computer, where you just take everything apart, and you just kind of rebuild and talk about it, whether it's my childhood, things that I'm having difficulty times with, good things, and kind of just piecing it all back together.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But you emerged stronger, not just emotionally but as a competitor as well.
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Yeah. Look, I'm lucky to be here. I'm lucky to have everything I have. So, I'm going to go down swinging no matter what. I just had a conversation with – I might get choked up here. I just had a conversation with a buddy of mine the other day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Take your time. It's okay.
MICHAEL PHELPS:
So, for me this is all fresh. So, a friend of mine, he's my mental health buddy and he knows who I'm talking about. I'll just say it. Okay, so Jay Glazer and I are mental health buddies. We both struggle. And when we're both having our bad days, we go through similar ups and downs and we do similar things when we're down, if that makes sense. And we both had this conversation the other day, because when it happens, for me I reach out to him. When it happens for him, he reached out to me. And I have a couple friendships like that, where we've kind of really been able to form a bond. And to what we were saying before is I literally sent a text to him and I was like, "I'm never [expletive] quitting, ever in my life. That's not who I am."
KRISTEN WELKER:
When you say, "I'm not a quitter," you mean you're not quitting--
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Anything. I won't quit anything. I will never give up at anything that – there are so many goals of mine that I have and want to accomplish. And no matter how hard it gets, I'm never giving up. There's a reason why I was able to win 23 Olympic gold medals, right? So, I'm determined. I'm stubborn. I’m, yeah, a laundry list of things. I just don't give up.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The U.S. Olympic Committee has said that it has made advances, particularly in the wake of your speaking out, other athletes speaking out. How do you assess the changes that the U.S. Olympic Committee has made? Has the committee gone far enough? What do you want to see happen that hasn't happened?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
There needs to be more, flat out. The ABC organizations have done some steps in the right direction to get help and care that us as athletes need. But they're not doing everything they can. And that upsets me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you want to see them do specifically?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I want to see them put the athletes first. That's it. Nothing else to say.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And that means providing better mental health care?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
It's everything. The athletes need to be first.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you didn't feel that way when you were an Olympian?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I walked into training rooms at the USOC and couldn't get care. This is six months before the 2008 Olympic Games.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You were denied care?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
I was denied anything. I couldn't get access. No physical trainer would help me. So, if that's happening with me, it's happening with others too. So, if we're supposed to be these athletes that are representing our country, then put the athletes first.
KRISTEN WELKER:
If one of the representatives of the Olympic Committee were sitting here instead of me, what would you say to them?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Nothing that can be recorded. There's just a lot of emotions there. There's so much passion for me. And I want what's right, period. That's all. And I won't stop until everything is done that I think needs to be done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And just finally, as we all get ready to watch the Olympics, there's so much pain right now all over the world. Do you see the Olympics as a moment that can help bring people together?
MICHAEL PHELPS:
Oh, that question. That was something, as a competitor, I always saw. Every four years we have the presidential race. And it's always kind of a crazy time. But I always think that, no matter what's going on, whether it's in the U.S. or all over the globe, the Olympics is something that brings everybody together. The spirit of the Olympic Games is so magical. And for me, it's just something that I can't imagine life without.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Our thanks to Michael Phelps. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. call or text 988 or chat at 988lifeline.org. And also a reminder to tune in to the Paris Olympics, this summer on NBC and Peaco*ck. That's all for today, thanks for watching. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
